Image Bearers in the Age of Images
September 15, 2024 Leave a comment
Ephesus, a major seaport on the eastern Mediterranean and the capital of a Roman province in Asia, was a vibrant hub of commerce, and a center of Roman rule and the Roman imperial cult.
Centuries before becoming a political capital, Ephesus was a center of religious activity. Communities of Jesus-followers living in the Greek city of Ephesus at the end of the first century AD would be confronted daily with political and cultic imagery. The city was renowned for its devotion to various gods and goddesses.
Artemis
Christians in that Greco-Roman setting would be well aware of one of the most prominent goddesses: Artemis. Her temple was famous for its great size and for the magnificent works of art that adorned it (See video below.)
The Greek goddess Artemis was worshipped as the goddess of hunting, wild animals, and fertility. Her Roman counterpart was Diana. Goddess Diana shared similar aspects of deity with Artemis. She was worshipped as a benefactress of the countryside and nature, hunters, wildlife, childbirth, crossroads, the night, and the Moon (See video below.)
During his second missionary journey to Ephesus, the Apostle Paul caused a big stir with the Artemis image industry (c. A.D. 52) (Acts 18:19).
“Around that time there was a major disturbance because of the Way. There was a silversmith called Demetrius who made silver statues of Artemis, which brought the workmen a tidy income. He got them all together, along with other workers in the same business.
“Gentlemen,” he began. “You know that the reason we are doing rather well for ourselves is quite simply this business of ours. And now you see, and hear, that this fellow Paul is going around not only Ephesus but pretty well the whole of Asia, persuading the masses to change their way of life, telling them that gods made with hands are not gods after all! This not only threatens to bring our business into disrepute, but it looks as if it might make people disregard the temple of the great goddess Artemis. Then she – and, after all, the whole of Asia, indeed the whole world worships her! – she might lose her great majesty.” (Acts 19:23-28)
The temple of Artemis was one of the wonders of the world. Its great size and lavish decorations were a major attraction for the many pilgrims and tourists who came to Ephesus. Their Artemis image purchases provided the guild of silversmiths the coin to produce more images and to sustain their livelihoods. After listening to Demetrius, “the whole city was filled with uproar” and people shouted “Great is Ephesian Artemis!”
We read in Acts 19 that the town clerk quieted the crowd. A riot would bring the Roman army down on them. He said, “Citizens of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is the temple keeper of the great Artemis and of the statue that fell from heaven?”
Nike
Jesus-followers living in Ephesus would also be conscious of ubiquitous images of Nike, a Greek goddess who personified Victory. That Muse website has more about Nike:
“. . .she was almost always represented in Greek art as a beautiful, winged woman. Her main role in life was to fly around battlefields, rewarding victors. The winning soldiers received a wreath of laurel leaves, symbolizing fame and glory. But she also visited and crowned outstanding athletes and heroes.”
In Roman mythology Nike is called Victoria. She is depicted as holding a palm leaf with her right hand while carrying a laurel wreath on the other. She was worshipped by the Roman army as personifying speed, strength, and victory.
Polytheism
The citizens of cosmopolitan Ephesus were polytheistic. It was common for them to add new gods to their personal pantheon. Like with Artemis (Diana) and Nike (Victoria), different gods had different roles.
Polytheism was not a religion with written scriptures. People knew the multiplicity of Greco-Roman deities by their images and myths – their form of theology. Seeing their gods was a way to believe and to practice their contractual religion (do ut des, “I give that you might give”). Offerings and sacrifices were offered to the gods in return for certain favors.
Contrary to the explicit polytheism all around them – pagan temples, pagan priests, pagan priestesses, pagan worshippers and pagan idols – Christians, along with the Jews, were monotheistic. Ephesians tolerated Christians who worshipped a new and different god (except as noted above with Paul) as there were many gods divided up among many peoples. And it seems, at that time, that the Roman government did not yet have a policy of persecution of the Christians; official action was based on the need to maintain good order, not on religious hostility.
Political and Cultic Imagery
Citizens of this capital of the Roman Empire in Asia Minor would also celebrate and worship deified Emperors who claimed being a divine son of god. Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, and subsequent Roman emperors were regularly referred to as “son of god” (divi filius). Coins were struck with the imperial image on one side and “son of god” on the other.
The Roman Empire, claiming divine authority on earth, spread its political influence in religious terms using monuments, iconography, myths, and Imperial cult rituals.
Symbolizing victory, Victoria’s (nike’s) image was vital to the Roman military. Her likeness, with crowns, laurel wreaths, or palm branches as victory emblems, was seen on coins, sculptures, and architectural reliefs, triumphal arches, and monuments.
Worship of Victoria was also thought to bring good fortune and help with politics, business, and personal undertakings.
The goddess Artemis had been worshiped for centuries. Her great temple in Ephesus (one of the seven wonders of the world) and the cult of Ephesian Artemis was vitally important to the citizens, as notes N.L. Gill in his post The Cult Statue of Artemis of Ephesus:
“The Ephesians’ goddess was their protector, a goddess of the polis (‘political’), and more. The Ephesians’ history and fate were intertwined with hers, so they raised the funds needed to rebuild their temple and replace their statue of the Ephesian Artemis.”
The Dispatch
Into this political and cultic context at the end of the first century AD, a circular letter was sent around to Jesus-follower communities in and around Ephesus.
1 John is a pastoral letter that presents a no-nonsense counter-cultural narrative. It is full of contrasts: those born of the world and those born of the father, light vs. darkness, truth vs. falsehood, righteousness vs. sin, love of the Father vs. love of the world, and the Spirit of God vs. the spirit of the Antichrist.
The letter was penned by an eyewitness of gospel events and one who had seen way beyond the images and idols and imperial power of Rome. 1 John is a rebuke to the claims of the Antimessiahs and to the appeal of a pagan culture. It also provided spiritual reinforcement for the letter’s recipients.
1 John was most likely written by John the Elder (and not John the son of Zebedee and one of the Twelve; more below) around 90 AD during the reign of Domitian (81-96 A.D.). (Domitian believed in the divine nature of his rule, aligning himself with the lineage of the first Roman emperor Augustus. He saw himself as an absolute ruler and took pride in being called master or god: “dominus et deus.”)
John opens his letter, not with the typical (“grace and peace”) greeting, but with an authoritative “we” reassurance of his and other’s experience of Jesus, the son of God. He speaks in terms of visual, aural, and physical contact with the Messiah. This is crucial for what he writes against the “Antimessiahs”.
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have gazed at, and our hands have handled – concerning the Word of Life!” That life was displayed, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and we announce to you the life of God’s coming age, which was with the father and was displayed to us. That which we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the father, and with his son Jesus the Messiah. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.” (1 John 1: 1-4)
John the Elder closes the circle of the fellowship of the joy bound by linking those (“we”) who were physically present with the Messiah with the Ephesian Christians who heard the gospel message and believed that Jesus is the Messiah, so that “our joy may be complete.”
(NB: The “joy” talked about here is not the DNC slogan “Joy”– a cover for the Harris cackle. Rather, John’s “our joy” completed would be the satisfaction of a deep yearning by the “we” for the readers to believe that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah and for them to be included in the dancing embrace of the father, son and spirit.)
John then writes in terms of the associative “we” about what it means for followers of Jesus to have fellowship with him: we are not to deceive ourselves about our sin, we keep the Lord’s commandments and we show rightly ordered love. (1 John 1: 6 – 2:11).
Conflict Within and Without
The letter’s opening brings to the fore one of the main purposes of the letter: to reaffirm that Jesus, the son of God and the Christ, (mentioned some 24 times in the letter) did have a real body and not, as some were saying, that Jesus only seemed to be human, and that his human form was an illusion (Docetism). This thinking had come into Ephesian churches.
Stephen Bedard writes at the History of Christianity:
“Docetism was a doctrine in the early years of the Christian church that claimed that Jesus didn’t have a physical body. The name comes from the Greek dókēsis which means “to seem.” It refers to the belief that Jesus only seemed to have a physical body. . .
“It was understood that mind/spirit was good and body was bad. Since Jesus is good, he must be all spirit and not body at all. In modern language, Jesus was almost a hologram. He looked perfectly human but underneath the image, there was no muscle or bone.”
Those worshipping images would not believe that a god would come down and dwell in the flesh. They believed the gods stayed up and away from humans and did their own thing. Intellectual sorts, who were anti-incarnation, unethical, and loveless Gnostics, were deceiving Ephesian Christians (1 John 2:26).
John presented truth tests to discern whether they were false teachers. Anyone who denied that Jesus is the Messiah was not from God (1 John 4:2-3). They were a “liar” and an “Antimessiah” (1 John 2:22).
He writes about “the spirit of truth” and the spirit of error (1 John 4:6). And, that “many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). “They went out from among us, but they were not really of our number” (1 John 2:19)
Denying that Jesus was the Messiah, the Antimessiahs split off from the church community. They didn’t accept Scripture’s references about Jesus or the testimony of eyewitnesses. (They were revisionist historians who, like many in Progressive churches today, homed in on his sayings. They think of Jesus in terms of being a fellow traveler who imparted esoteric truths.) Whatever love or joy the Antimessiahs had went with them when they left the church.
In his second letter, John echoes this warning: “Many deceivers, you see, have gone out into the world. These are people who do not admit that Jesus is the Messiah has come in the flesh. Such a person is the Deceiver – the Antimessiah!” (2 John 2:7)
(Ongoing conflict: Earlier (c. A.D. 52), Priscilla and Aquila, who had come to Ephesus with Paul, instructed a Jew named Apollos in the way of the Lord. Apollos then “vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah. (Acts 18:28))
Beside the conflict within the local churches, there was the ever-present Roman Empire that expected worship of the emperor. John writing over and over that Jesus is the son of God (and not the emperor) put the Christians in direct opposition to Rome. But it seems that, at that time, Rome was somewhat lax about forcing the Jews and Christians to burn incense for the emperor. If these two groups did disturb Rome’s Pax Romana, they would be dealt with.
(Calling Jesus “Lord” and having a “kingdom of God” message also conflicted with the Roman empire’s ‘divine’ prerogatives.)
Living as a Conquering Contradiction
As mentioned above, imperial Rome spread political propaganda through religion. And throughout Ephesus there would be visual representations of Roman conquest and power: grand architecture and monuments, centurions and soldiers all around, and the conquering, overcoming, prevailing, subduing, obtaining victory, Nike/Victoria images around the city and on coins.
Perhaps, with all of these images in mind, John the Elder writes:
“. . . everything fathered by God conquers the world. This is the victory (nike, νίκη) that conquers the world: our faith. (1 John 5:4):
Conquering Attitude
We, the “fathered by God” no longer continue sinning (1 John 3: 9; 5:18).
Because we are “fathered by God” we understand that we are God’s children (1 John 3: 1) and that loving one another is a character trait of all who know the father (1 John 4:7).
And because we are “fathered by God” and “God is love” (1 John 4:7-12), we as his children need not live in fear like the pagans who look to capricious gods and superstitious practices and the Roman state for understanding and favor. (Sounds like Progressives today.)
We understand that “the one in you is greater than the one who is in the world” (the Antimessiah) (1 John 4:4).
We believe that Jesus the Messiah has been fathered by God (1 John 5: 1), (The center of Christianity is the Incarnation of Jesus, God becoming flesh and dwelling among humanity. John railed against the Antimessiahs because he and others had witnessed the flesh and blood presence and power of the true Messiah. Jesus wasn’t some esoteric figure floating in the air. He wasn’t a statue or icon of a god. Jesus, son of God, Messiah, was “displayed” to John and others as a new way of being human.)
We understand that “we are from God, and the whole world is under the power of evil one” (1 John 5:19) (As Paul wrote to the Ephesian church some 30-40 years before:
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” – Ephesians 6:12)
As the letter comes to a close, John reemphasizes his message:
“We know that the son of God has come and given us understanding so that we know the truth. And we are in the truth, in his son Jesus the Messiah. This is the true God; this is the life of the age to come. (1 John 5:20-21).
The letter of 1 John ends with a succinct pastoral exhortation based on what was said at the beginning of the letter about the reality of what John and others had witnessed: “keep yourself from idols.”
Christians are not to get involved with unreality. They are not to collude with evil. Early Christians believed that idol worship in its various forms was used by demonic forces. The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:21–22:
“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?”
Those of us born of the father live in the tension of contrasts: light vs. dark, truth vs. falsehood, righteousness vs. sin, love of the Father vs. love of the world, and the Spirit of God vs. the spirit of the Antimessiahs. We are to overcome that tension with the reality of Jesus, son of God and Messiah.
I see tremendous forces (DEI, ESG, LGBTQ, Critical Race theory, WEF, WHO, Globalism, etc.) at work to conform everyone into a monolithic unity of enforced pluralism subject to one Satanic Beast. Those who confess loyalty to the Beast will find it easier to get a job, move up, gain tenure and more. Those who don’t will be called “weird” and sacrificed to the Beast.
In the milieu of this sociocultural pluralism, it would be quite easy to glide into a religious pluralism and end up worshipping the vaunted images of the world and rage against those who don’t – “Great is Ephesian Artemis!”
And, with the multiplicity of political and cultic images generated daily to influence behavior, it would be quite easy to glide into a religious pluralism so as to be accepted, to have “likes” and clicks and to avoid the pressure being applied by the culture. One would thus end up having a form of godliness (virtue signaling) but denying its power (2 Timothy 3:5). Neither John the Elder nor I want anything to do with such people.
For those who question the uniqueness or claims of Christian faith, John’s letter with truth tests would be in order.
Not longer just image bearers of the One True God, we are more: overcoming image bearers of Jesus, the son of God, Messiah, and Lord.
~~~~
This circular pastoral letter was most likely written by John the Elder and not John the son of Zebedee, one of the Twelve. John was from an aristocratic family in Jerusalem and a member of the High Priest’s family.
According to Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus late in the second century, John (the Elder), “who leaned back on the Lord’s breast,” was a (Jewish high) “priest” (who had officiated in the Jerusalem temple early in his life), a “witness”, and a “teacher” (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 5.24.2-7). (cf. Acts 4:6 & John 18:15, John’s record of Jesus’ high priestly intercessory prayer in John 17, and his courtyard access John 18:15).
John the Elder was most likely the Beloved disciple who was mentioned in John 21: 20-23. Because of his proximity to Jesus, John the Elder was an eyewitness of the events of gospel history. He was at Jesus’ crucifixion and given charge over Mary. He eventually brought her with him to Ephesus.
“When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, ‘Woman, here is your son,’ and to the disciple, ‘Here is your mother.’ From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” (John 19:26-27)
Several years younger than the Twelve Apostles, John the Elder survived most of them. It seems that he lived into the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117) as prominent Christian teacher in Asia. (We don’t know why he is called John the Elder. “Elder” may refer to John’s old age (Likely 80-90 years old at the end of the first century) more than an honorific. He writes to his “little children” in his letters.
John the Elder most likely wrote the Gospel of John and the three Johannine letters – 1, 2 & 3 John.
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Temple of Artemis at Ephesus – Sanctuary of the Ephesian Diana (learning-history.com)
Greek Mythology Explained | Artemis: Goddess of the Hunt | Miscellaneous Myths (youtube.com)
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Within days, global elitists will try to put world government on steroids. The perpetrators don’t want us to know it, but that’s the purpose of the upcoming “Summit of the Future” and the accord it is supposed to adopt, dubbed the “Pact for the Future.”
Rather than openly doing so by voting to revise the United Nations Charter, the idea is to launch a “process” to be conducted largely behind closed doors. The UN’s Secretary-General and former president of the Socialist International, Antonio Guterres, however, has let slip that process’ goal – namely, granting him authority unilaterally to declare and dictate the responses to emergencies caused by any of a number of so-called “complex global shocks.”
Read the UN document here>>>> “Pact for the Future” – The Socialist Manifesto (malone.news)
Contact your representatives!!
Take action here>>> THE U.N. IS NOT A WORLD GOVERNMENT – KEEP IT THAT WAY! | AlignAct
9-11-2024:
Globalist Ambitions at the U.N.’s Summit of the Future (rumble.com)
BRIEFING: Globalist Ambitions at the U.N.’s Summit of the Future – Sovereignty Coalition
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My sister sent me this video. I agree with Hamrick:
Church, Unite for the Soul of America! | Ezekiel 33:1-5 | Gary Hamrick (youtube.com)
I get the sense that there are Christians who want to hurry off to heaven. They believe that there will be a rapture and they will be taken away from the trouble on earth and therefore voting doesn’t matter. Understand, there will be NO rapture. That is a misinterpretation of Scripture. Go vote!!
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Nicole Shanahan on X: “Who really are the MAGA People? https://t.co/Zk6rvijCge” / X
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In late August officials [of China’s Communist Party] published regulations for dealing with them [the corrupt, criminal and disloyal], too. The aim is to reform or expel people who show a “lack of revolutionary spirit” . . .
Religious members are seen as another problem. Newbies must swear that they are atheist. But many still harbour beliefs in the supernatural. . . According to the regulations, religious folk should be given a chance to renounce their beliefs—and kicked out if they do not.
How to get kicked out of China’s Communist Party (archive.is)
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Contentious Culture Wars in a Polarized Political Age: A Conversation with Sociologist James Davison Hunter
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[i] Bauckham, R. (1993/2018). The theology of the Book of Revelation. PP 88-89
https://doi.org/10.1017/cbo9780511819858
Authority Issues
January 1, 2023 Leave a comment
Looking back, how many of you, during the COVID planned-demic, wore a mask, or worse, received the experimental DNA-altering jab because you feared losing access to someplace or someone, or losing your job? Authoritarians, and their media handmaids, made a point of telling you to fall in line and fear repercussions. Authoritarians control people with narratives that are to be taken as gospel.
If you and I did not practice the gospel of safetyism – a means to scare everyone into conformity under authoritarian rule – then you and I were portrayed as heartless and extremists.
Let us not forget. The abusive, manipulative and corrosive nature of authoritarianism has been evidenced the past two years. Our lives, families, and communities have incurred massive blows from the hammer of unconstrained authority. Liberty – freedom of thought, word and association – be damned!
It has been and continues to be the authoritarians who see themselves as the most intellectually and morally advanced people. They have no issue telling others what to do and making them do so with jackboot mandates. They speak in terms of power to truth.
One ubiquitous televised authority told you that he was “science” – period! Based on this pronouncement, you and I were to immediately end critical thinking and questioning about COVID “science”. We were to submit to the apotheosis of “the science”.
Several authorities used manipulative ways to bring about conformity to their will: This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated!
Now, one authority figure is saying “I think we all agree the most important thing going on in the world right now is the war in Ukraine”. Really?! Ukraine’s border is more important than the massive invasion happening at our own southern border? What this authority figure is really saying is that the military-industrial complex must be served first before the concerns of Americans.
The last two years have also shown us that authoritarians demand that the bio-industrial complex be served at the expense of freedom and human life.
You see, for the military-industrial complex to financially survive it must produce and sell weaponry . . . and war. For the bio-medical complex to financially survive it must mass produce new serums and pandemics to sell.
Repurposed drugs like Hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin are not money makers. Of course, the politicians and media who support the military complex and/or the bio-medical complex and not the repurposed drugs are rewarded.
There is no question in my mind that very significant powerbrokers around the world have either planned to take advantage of the next pandemic or created the pandemic. – Dr. Michael Yeadon, ex-Pfizer VP
Global authoritarians are now telling us to believe in climate change and to be prepared to pay a price to fix it. Yet, scientists say there is no climate emergency.
Those who have read my blog since 2020 know that I haven’t accept COVID authority. I did not get the jab and I will not wear a mask. I have questioned everything that comes from the CDC and on TV. I have witnessed true science being denied so that authoritarians can have their way.
I have linked to hundreds of commentaries that question the validity of COVID “science” via each post’s “Informed Dissent”. I question what is posited as “the science” and gospel truth. I question authority and take on challenges.
What follows is a common authority challenge presented to Christians from the pulpit and elsewhere, as you will see:
The conversation that follows started with a recent social media post that included a video.
The post: What’s your authority – God’s Word or man’s word? The age of the earth issue is not a science VS faith or an interpretation issue, it’s actually an authority issue. And that issue affects the Gospel. Find out how in this episode of Creation Basics.
The video: No Verses Support This, Yet Christians Believe It…
Does the Bible support evolution or billions of years? Whatever your final authority is will determine how you answer this question.
The video’s premise: “adding billions of years into the Bible destroys the concept of Biblical authority”.
Underlying premises: science is secular thinking; empirical science doesn’t apply to creation origin; “If the Bible isn’t true to the facts of the real world, about the age of the earth, then there is really no reason to trust it . . . “; (and Bible skeptics and atheists might get the upper hand).
Per the video’s premise, I’m a Biblical authority denier for “believing the secular geologic time scale”. To this and to the brazen and distorted underlying premises of Biblical authority and the gospel as compromised by science, I had to write a reply.
My comment to the post:
Wow! This video is messed up. This way of thinking is messed. up. Authority issue? Pitting manmade “Biblical authority” against manmade science authority? What foolishness. The physical world existed long before God gave the cosmos function and order. Genesis tells us that God set up the existing cosmos to be his temple within 7 literal days. Genesis 1 -11 should be understood as being written to ancient Near East people. The Genesis account made sense, in temple terms, to these readers. They understood Genesis as describing functional origins rather than accounts of material origins.
Genesis begins with the functional origins of an existing universe that science confirms came into existence billions of years before.
Genesis is theological history and science the physical history. I see no conflict.
*****
Marq, a proponent of Answers In Genesis message, replied to my comments:
If the Bible is fantasy than how did it know that there were springs in the oceans, Genesis 7&8?
BTW, God created the earth the seas and all that is in them in six twenty-four-hour days. Although it could be six twenty-hour days.
BTW, if you’d like to refute the Bible try proving abiogenesis. Omne vivum ex vivo. If you can give us the formula to prove abiogenesis, maybe we could then entertain the idea of evolution being plausible.
You see no conflict? Jesus said it was real history. There is your conflict. I can’t trust in someone who is either a liar or is delusional. Maybe you don’t have that problem, but I do.
*****
My reply to Marq:
I didn’t say the Bible is fantasy. The OT was written for us but it wasn’t written to us. It was written to ancient Israel who understood Genesis in temple creation terms- functional terms – and not in physical material creation terms. You are forcing Scripture – taking it out of context – to have it say what you want it to say.
I grew up with the same reductionist thinking. I went to Moody Bible Institute. I was taught that Genesis was literal – but Gen. 1-11 is not literal. God used true mythology to give ancient Israel an explanation of origins and operations.
BTW: God gave us two Scriptures – the Bible and science. We can learn from both scripture and science while not forcing the other to have it mean something that is not true.
The study of scripture and science must include history, ancient history. We must look at all of the evidence God laid out. The people in the ancient world understood things differently than we do. Genesis was written to them so we must read Genesis in their context of language, culture and meaning. which included mythology to explain things.
Study the ancient history, the language and culture. God didn’t give us a Sunday School color-in-the-lines paper to take home. He gave us a world to explore.
*****
Marq replied:
I know what you meant, as I have debated theistic evolutionists. I’m saying we have proof of the literal interpretation.
We know from science that springs actually exist and it was written in Genesis 7&8, you know that part you said is mythology. It wasn’t until 1971 that science proved it and it was only postulated by science in the 1960’s.
So, your mythology takes [sic] crumbles into reality. Also, the migration of people in Genesis eleven is also proven by archeology and now it is shown by the Y-chromosome DNA again sowing [sic] it’s not mythology.
It has been proven repeatedly that life only begets life, omne vivum ex vivo, just as Genesis said. Remember paganism has always believed the universe created itself.
Finally, as I said Jesus would be a liar because he taught that Genesis was true history as did the apostle Paul to Areopagus and not an allegory.
As Jesus said, “John 3:12 If when I tell you earthly things, ye believe not, how should ye believe, If I shall tell you of heavenly things?”
Do you believe Jesus raised Himself from the dead? Do you believe He walked on water? Do you believe He raised Lazarus from the dead? If you do, what scientific proof do you have of those events?
*****
My reply to Marq:
You have provided no proof of a literal interpretation. You provided inuendo, circular reasoning and crumbling logic.
You say that science backs up some things in Scripture and therefore proves Genesis 1-11 to be literal and not myth. Based on that you tell me that since science cannot prove other things in scripture therefore scripture trumps science and myth. Let’s talk mythology.
Modern man views mythology as being false. C.S. Lewis, for one, thought otherwise. God, the great storyteller, revealed Himself through different mythologies throughout history. The core ideas behind the myths were “literally” fulfilled in the first century via Jesus of Nazareth’s incarnation, death, and resurrection.
Myths as false?
Jesus spoke to the multitudes in myth-like parables. These tales were not literal historic events. These were allegorical, metaphorical, and symbolic stories that were spoken in contemporary terms. The parables conveyed truth to the listener.
God gave us science so we could explore and understand the physical world that he created. Science is not a discipline that explains things metaphysically just as theology is not a discipline that explains creation in physical terms. Science is NOT in conflict with scripture – except when secularists and fundamentalists make it so. God gave us both science AND scripture to reveal Himself to us. The material world is incredibly important to God – the word became flesh.
Genesis 1-11 is the true myth written to ancient Israel living within a pagan culture. It wasn’t written specifically to a Sunday school class in the ‘50s that had been taught to hate Darwin and evolutionary creation.
Ancient cultures understood all that is not in science-based terms but in metaphysical-based terms. The saw their world as controlled by gods. They had temples to these gods. The temples were thought of as the cosmos. In their way of thinking, the creation of a temple is the creation of the cosmos.
The apostle Paul addressed the god/temple way of thinking during his speech to the Athenians at the Areopagus. He tells them about the “Unknown God” who created the world. He goes on to say that this “Unknown God” does not live in a temple made by human hands. God created a temple out of the cosmos so that people could seek him out and know him.
Genesis 1 is an account of God inaugurating order (out of the existing chaos) and functionality for his cosmic temple. Genesis 1& 2 is not an account of material origins and material preparations for his temple. Genesis 1 & 2 should be understood as a temple-based explanation of creation.
Over 6–24-hour days God ordered the existing chaos (after the Big Bang) and gave it functions. Heaven and earth, sea and dry land, light and dark, night and day, seedtime and harvest, seasons . . . On the seventh day God “rested” in his cosmic temple and oversaw his creation.
The English word “created” used for Genesis 1:1 translation does not help our understanding. The Hebrew word (bara), in its ancient context, does not imply God creating the universe ex nihilo and it does not imply a function-giving interpretation. Within its context in scripture (about 50x) it does seem that ancient Israel viewed things in functional terms rather than material terms.
*****
Marq’s response:
Nice try! But the Y-chromosome and as I said the springs in the seas in ch. 7,8, and 11 shows it is not an allegory.
Just as omne vivum ex vivo destroys any concept of evolution. There is zero evidence of evolution or your logic. Evolution uses circular reasoning which creationists exposed, because evos use fossils to date the rocks and rocks to date the fossils based on their belief of the rock strata presupposition.
Even SCOTUS when evolutionists brought suit to keep creationism out of school could not confirm evolution so SCOTUS said creationism could not be taught because of separation of church and state.
When our own school board in Columbus, Ohio was allowing creationism to be taught alongside evolution in 1976 evolutionists showed up arguing against it saying separation of church and state. Again, they did not present facts because there are none. I was present at the meeting and as always creationists brought facts.
Evolutonists are scared of facts as there are none that a reasonable person would consider. As Richard Dawkins found out when he debated A. E. Wilder-Smith at Oxford University. Wilder-Smith and another creationist of whom I can’t recall his name was able to persuade quite a few people at this bastion of evolutionary dogma.
After it was over Dawkins refused to openly debate and warned other evolutionists not to debate openly.
Instead of engaging me on evidence you too resort to innuendos. As I said if God was just using parables than how did springs (fountains) end up being real? How did Genesis 11 and the migration of Shem, Ham, and Japheth turn out to be true? or omne vivum ex vivo?
You, and your evo friends, are the ones hiding behind mythology.
Let’s settle this argument. Give me the mathematical formula that proves evolution. One that can be demonstrated time and time again.
Stop hiding behind mythology and it takes millions of years to hide behind the fact that you have no answers. Evolution is only in fairy tale books fit for little children.
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, in the same day WERE ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP WERE BROKEN UP, and the windows of heaven were opened,
Job 38:16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
May God open your eyes.
*****
My reply:
Your words: “the Y-chromosome and as I said the springs in the seas in ch. 7,8, and 11 shows it is not an allegory.” How?!? That literal things existed that science later discovered and therefore Genesis 1-11 could not be a myth explaining existence in temple-making terms to ancient people? So, according to you, everything in Genesis 1-11 must be considered literal because things existed? Your logic makes no sense.
Here’s another example of the same illogic:
“As I said if God was just using parables than how did springs (fountains) end up being real?”
By the same logic, learning some 2000 years after Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan that there were actual Samaritans and Levites in Jesus’ time would mean that what Jesus said in parable format should be discounted as false and not literal authoritative. NB: their literal existence didn’t refute the use of parable by Jesus to speak (the unseen) kingdom truths.
Does everything have to be literal to be proven true? If so, that is a sad commentary on modern man. If so, that supposition also shows that left brain literal thinking has taken over.
Back on track, we are talking about whether Genesis 1-11 is a myth explaining to Israel the setup of a cosmic temple or Genesis as a literal science explanation of creation using 6-7 24 hr. days. Right?
We are talking about whether the cosmos is billions of years old (a science calculated estimate) old or 6-8k years old (a young earth creationist calculated estimate). Right?
The video would have us believe that if we do not accept the authority of scripture – a 6-24 hr. day material creation postulated by Answers in Genesis – then we are misled and are denying scriptural authority. What utter nonsense and pretentiousness! What a con job!
I don’t believe in spontaneous generation. I don’t know any biologists who do. I don’t know anyone who does. Evolution is a scientific theory that doesn’t contradict the Bible. (Note: social Darwinism is not something, as a Christian, I adhere to.) Like with the study of ancient cultures, it is more than OK to look at historical evidence: rock strata, fossil records, and genetics. It is Ok to understand the biogeography of nature. It is OK to study the natural order. It testifies of God.
“The Heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1)
And so it is that understanding of the stars has led scientists to refine the ages of the stars in globular clusters, and now estimate them to be about 13 billion years old. This means that the stars in the globular clusters must have formed within the first several hundred million years of the universe’s existence!
No mythology: The approximate age of the universe can be derived using Hubble’s law: v = H0d where (d) is the distance between two galaxies, (v) their apparent separation velocity, (H0) the expanding universe (Hubble’s) constant. The velocity of the galaxy, aka, redshift, is directly proportional to its distance.
Q.E.D.
*****
Marq’s next response:
Flavius Josephus, Jesus, and all of the Apostles all believed Genesis 1-11 was true chronological history reserved for mankind and not mythological or allegorical account not to be taken as literal.
So, it’s the evolutionists job to prove what is obvious to any casual observer.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
From Flavius Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book 1, Chapter 3:9. Now when Noah had lived three hundred and fifty years after the Flood, and that all that time happily, he died, having lived the number of nine hundred and fifty years. But let no one, upon comparing the lives of the ancients with our lives, and with the few years which we now live, think that what we have said of them is false; or make the shortness of our lives at present an argument, that neither did they attain to so long a duration of life, for those ancients were beloved of God, and [lately] made by God himself; and because their food was then fitter for the prolongation of life, might well live so great a number of years: and besides, God afforded them a longer time of life on account of their virtue, and the good use they made of it in astronomical and geometrical discoveries, which would not have afforded the time of foretelling [the periods of the stars] unless they had lived six hundred years; for the great year is completed in that interval. Now I have for witnesses to what I have said, all those that have written Antiquities, both among the Greeks and barbarians; for even Manetho, who wrote the Egyptian History, and Berosus, who collected the Chaldean Monuments, and Mochus, and Hestieus, and, besides these, Hieronymus the Egyptian, and those who composed the Phoenician History, agree to what I here say: Hesiod also, and Hecatseus, Hellanicus, and Acusilaus; and, besides these, Ephorus and Nicolaus relate that the ancients lived a thousand years. But as to these matters, let every one look upon them as he thinks fit.
II Peter 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this FACT, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
******
My reply:
“What is obvious to any casual observer” is that you are dropping a lot of names and scripture bombs to conceal your lack of a coherent argument. None of your references support a literal 6-24 hr day creation. They just refer to creation as creation.
Of course, Jesus believed in creation. NT writers told us that he is the creator (Jn. 1, Col. 1). But nothing in the NT tells us that Jesus spoke of or believed in literal 6-24 hr. days of creation.
Colossians 1: 15 “He is the image of God, the invisible one, The firstborn of creation”.
How should we understand the “firstborn of creation” words from this early Christian hymn? In literal terms? By the authority of scripture, we can fully acknowledge the metaphor that Jesus is the “firstborn of creation.”
A metaphor helps us understand a truth we cannot fully grasp. This, it seems to me, is how Genesis 1-11 was written – in true myth to an ancient people.
Remember the words of Jesus: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Those around him took it literally. It wasn’t until the resurrection that the disciples understood what he meant.
Remember Jesus saying “If you’ve got ears, then listen!” after he told them parables. The multitudes loved the literal feedings, the literal healings, and the literal exorcisms. They came to him for the literal. But the things of the kingdom of God, expressed in parables, were not literal enough for most of them.
Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again confused him.
There are many, many metaphors, allegories and true myths in scripture. Is Song of Solomon literal? Should I cut off my hand if it makes me sin? Genesis 1-11 as true myth should not upset anyone’s theology.
One last word on Genesis 1-2.
In the last two chapters of the Revelation of John we find that God’s cosmic temple-based explanation of creation, written as true myth to ancient Israel in Genesis 1-2, is fully realized.
“I heard a loud voice from the throne, and this is what it said: “Look! God has come to dwell with humans! He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them and will be their God.” Rev. 21: 3
The peace of the Lord be with you.
*****
Marq’s next response:
I forgot to mention that I went to a Messianic Synagogue to learn Hebrew. They believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis and Yeshua as God incarnate.
They were also taught as children the literal interpretation of Genesis as Jews. In fact, most orthodox Jews believe in the literal translation of Genesis. Again, this counters your argument that they did not believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11.
*****
My friend, I cannot vouch for what others think or for the generation of their beliefs.
As I understand it, you believe the verb bara’ translated as “create” infers a material creation of the universe that lasted 6 -24 hr days. The seventh day is tacked on as a non-workday, I guess.
We would both agree that Hebrew lexicons translate the verb bara’ as “create”. That is the closest English word. The definition given for bara’ is to create, shape and form.
Bara’ (Gen. 1:1) can be God choosing to give order and purpose to the material creation out of the existing chaos. Bara’ can describe a formative process and a function-giving process.
Examples of bara’ would be an artist who “creates” a painting or an architect who “creates” a temple. The materials are there and the scope/vision is there. Creation is the application of materials and vision to produce the desired outcome.
That creation understanding is my understanding of the literal 7 days of Genesis. God gave functions and roles to the existing creation to support mankind. Man was created to be the caretaker-priest of his temple creation. We find out later that Adam, an archetype of caretaker-priest mankind, needed someone to help with the caretaking of the temple. Hence Eve, derived from one-half of Adam and another such archetype.
Reading the 7 days of Genesis in functional terms and not in material creation terms, makes sense. God is inaugurating his cosmic temple over the 6 24 hr days. On the seventh God “rests’ or sits and rules in his cosmic temple. Ancient people would understand the temple building, temple inauguration, and priests serving temple gods.
Note: the temple theme begins in Genesis 1 and goes through scripture to the last chapters of John’s Revelation. Temple creation, tent-tabernacle, Solomon’s temple, the second temple, new creations as the temple of God, and finally God dwelling with man and . . .
“I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God the Almighty is it temple, together with the Lamb.” Rev. 21: 22
Finally, my initial comment was directed to the video posted. I rejected its premise:
The age of the earth issue is not a science VS faith or an interpretation issue, it’s actually an authority issue. And that issue affects the Gospel
The Catholic church also had “authority” issues. Those issues led to the Inquisition to combat “heresy”. The Inquisition generated dread – people feared being rejected by the church and loss of salvation. There were horrific consequences if they did not profess whatever they were told to profess. They accepted, out of fear of losing their salvation, whatever they were told to accept. The video reminded me of the Inquisition and how church authorities felt threatened by those questioned what their authority dictated.
People of science should never be marginalized and ostracized by the Christian community.
I’m done here. Thank you for the back and forth.
The peace of the Lord be with you.
*****
Marq’s final words:
Ultimately, what you are saying is that the universe created God?
The first Law of Thermodynamics says the universe cannot create itself and the 2nd Law says it had to be created.
This is just common logic, otherwise, God is just as material and useless as the pagan gods and Jesus would just be a clown.
It’s funny because the Catholic Church has always believed in evolution and the scientific community which is why they adopted the pagan Aristotle and Ptolemy. It’s the evolutionists who are running the inquisition. They are saying that evolution is a fact that needs no proof.
Again, the only proof you’ve proffered for evolution is that Genesis was meant as an allegory.
Since the Laws of Thermodynamic are mathematical proofs and cannot be refuted, evolutionists try to say we don’t understand so their sycophants fall in line. You do not demand that evos put up or shut up.
You’d think after thousands of years they’ve spent trying to convince people they could put something together that was coherent.
May God open your eyes to the obvious truth.
And . .
Thank you too for conversing!
**********
Marq’s replies reveal that he totally missed what I was saying all along. Or, he just didn’t want to deal with what I was saying except in scripted terms. Marq’s final words are defensive and dismissive. He does not offer new information in support of a literal 6-day 24 hr. creation. Before that, he claimed that others believe that his position is true and therefore that proves it to be true.
And like the unconscionable video message, Marqe pits science against scripture, as if God’s own material creation would betray God’s own word to us.
Legal experts from Jerusalem set up a similar adversarial scenario – “it’s not the way we say it’s supposed to be” vs. the way it is. The Gospel according to Mark chapter 3, vs. 22-30 records Jesus being accused of being possessed by an unclean spirit because he cast out demons. His response: “How can the Accuser cast out the Accuser?”
And how could material creation betray the creator? Even the stones would be shouting out praise to the Living Word if all else is silent!
In my responses I never said or implied that the universe created itself or that God didn’t create the universe. I was stating that scripture, and Genesis in particular, is not scientific revelation. The opening chapters of Genesis are true myth written to an ancient people and their understanding.
Apparently, he thinks that since I am positing Genesis 1 & 2 as true myth – God’s way of explaining creation to an ancient people – that I am saying God didn’t create the world. God did create the universe and, as I tried to convey, perhaps not in the way that Marq insisted it happened. And, of course, the laws of thermodynamic operate in the physical world.
I don’t read Genesis, and scripture as a whole, as scientific revelation. Scripture is a revelation of identity, function and purpose. We find out from scripture who God is and who we are and what we are to be about.
To convey this in contemporary terms, God used the culture, language and understanding of an ancient writer (and every writer of scripture since) to convey what He wanted the people of that time to know. Genesis was written in their ancient terms.
I responded to Marq, not for a debate, but so that I could present another look at Genesis 1-11. Not once did he respond to my temple creation viewpoint. Instead, he tied me in, as if going by a young earth creationist playbook, with evolutionists and the godless cabal who deny the authority of “6-day 24 hr. material creation” and therefore the authority of the Bible. (Here I am being accused of being a scripture denier, not a “COID science denier”.)
The opening of the video presents a red herring argument: “scripture doesn’t mention billions of years” Well, scripture is not a scientific journal of events.
Scripture also doesn’t mention, among many other things, that the earth revolves around the sun. Science figured that out and church authoritarians rallied against such a finding because it didn’t align with their teaching. Huh.
Again, scripture is a revelation of identity and relationships. Genesis 1 & 2 names the functions of the cosmic temple, Adam and Eve are the named archetypes of mankind, genealogies follow, Jesus names the twelve, Saul is renamed Paul, new names are handed out as recorded in the John’s Revelation. Names and relationships.
What the video would have us believe: “If you don’t affirm what I saying about a literal Genesis account as being authoritative then the gospel you believe cannot be authoritative.” This setup is not just childish and unconscionable. It is a demonic point of view.
Because science and scripture present different ways of understanding reality, they will not look like they sync. And that is not a justification to reject either one. To suggest that science should be rejected in order to support “Biblical creation” is also a demonic point of view.
Scripture is authoritative. Interpretation is not. Every directive from an authority should be questioned, whether it be from pastor, priest, Pope, Jesuit, professor, the CDC or politician. Don’t roll over and play dead. Study and become convinced of what you believe. As a trailblazer who will not stand being shamed for referring to scripture and science maps, “carve out a straight path for the word of truth- the gospel” (2 Tim. 2:15).
Recall that Jesus had to constantly inform and upbraid legal experts and Pharisees. Many of these self-styled authoritarians presented themselves as “the most intellectually and morally advanced people” in the community and therefore qualified to communicate authoritatively. But they had settled on interpretations of God’s word that missed the mark. As synagogue authorities they passed on their interpretations to the communities in which they lived.
It is a serious matter to Jesus if the interpretation and teachings of God’s word causes anyone to stumble (see Matt. 18:1-7). And remember: the only one who possesses all truth is Jesus, and he served as a model of meekness.
*****
EXCLUSIVE: Archbishop Vigano Calls for 3-Day Fast for Jan 6 Detainees | Human Events | humanevents.com
MIT Adopts Free Speech Resolution: “We Cannot Prohibit Speech as Offensive or Injurious.” – JONATHAN TURLEY
*****
Informed Dissent:
Equity Investment Executive Ed Dowd: 1.7 Million Americans Placed on Disability – Directly Related to COVID Vaccine (VIDEO) (thegatewaypundit.com)
Warning from Ed Dowd: 7,500 Americans are killed or disabled EACH DAY as vax jabs take heavy toll… USA imploding under “decivilization” assault – NaturalNews.com
VAX DEATHS LABELED SUICIDE BY LIFE INSURANCE COMPANIES — NOT COVERED (bitchute.com)
9-Year-Old Boy from Ontario Dies Suddenly After Suffering a Blood Clot in his Brain (thegatewaypundit.com)
The most detailed evidence yet of the devastating damage Covid vaccines can do – The Conservative Woman
12ft | Pfizer’s COVID-19 Vaccine Linked to Blood Clotting: FDA
Why Does Peter Hotez Think We Are Mass Murderers? (substack.com)
quick updates on covid vaccine fertility issues (substack.com)
Top Australian Doctor Who Advocated for COVID Vaccine Finally Breaks Her Silence – Says Doctors are Censored – Reveals She and Her Wife Both Suffer Serious COVID Shot Injuries (thegatewaypundit.com)
EU announces first ‘direct carbon tax’ on individuals… – CITIZEN FREE PRESS
“The lawsuit, filed in October, 2021 by Liberty Counsel, represents more than 500 current and former health care workers who were unlawfully discriminated against and denied religious exemptions from the COVID shot mandate.”
Final Approval in $10.3 Million Settlement Case for Health Care Workers Granted by Court (thegatewaypundit.com)
People are turning down Remdesivir at hospitals, so the hospitals are still giving Remdesivir to them, but under another name: Veklury
Generic Name: Remdesivir
Brand Name: Veklury
Same deadly fauci drug.
Arizona Border Hospital Hit With $20 Million Bill For Treating Illegal Migrants – ‘It’s Unsustainable’ (thegatewaypundit.com)
SLU Encourages Students to Speak Out Against Proposed Minor Protection Rule for Public Libraries – Young America’s Foundation (yaf.org)
White House Can’t Mandate COVID Jabs for Federal Contractors: Appeals Court | NTD
How Twitter Rigged the Covid Debate (thefp.com)
What Could Go Wrong? Startup Releases Particles into The Atmosphere to Stop “Climate Change” (thegatewaypundit.com)
Do vaccines cause autism? It sure looks like it to me. (substack.com)
The (Covid) Law is an Ass – No Jab, No Job (substack.com)
700% diabetes surge predicted as Covid vaccine is linked to diabetes | Sharyl Attkisson
Confidential Pfizer and Government Documents confirm ADE, VAED, and AIDS due to COVID-19 Vaccination have led to Millions “Dying Suddenly” & still counting – The Expose (expose-news.com)
No hock Sherlock!
The left hates humans:
Democrat Gov. Hochul Legalizes Composting Human Remains in New York (thegatewaypundit.com)
Hmmmmm:
Spending Bill Funnels Over $300 Million Related To A Future Flu Pandemic, Including For ‘Surveillance Tools’ (nationalfile.com)
Omnibus Pork Thread: Thread by @RepDanBishop on Thread Reader App – Thread Reader App
Perspective:
The gift that keeps on giving:
Omnibus Shows Congress’s Priorities: Authoritarianism & War | ZeroHedge
18 Republicans Voted to Pass the McConnell-Schumer Omnibus (dailysignal.com)
ANOTHER NASTY SURPRISE: GOP Sellouts Gave Biden Regime $11 MILLION to Target Gun Owners in Repulsive Omnibus Bill (thegatewaypundit.com)
Annus horribilis:
The year the West erased women – UnHerd
Where are the adults?
Stanford University Walks Back Plan to Eliminate ‘Racist’ and ‘Harmful’ Words Like ‘American,’ ‘Grandfather’ After Backlash (thegatewaypundit.com)
Secretary Pete Buttigieg AWOL as Massive Southwest Airlines Cancellations Create Holiday Travel Hell Across Nation (thegatewaypundit.com)
‘Kidults’ Now Responsible For a Quarter of All US Toy Sales – Summit News
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Filed under 2023 current events, Christianity, cosmology, Creationism, Political Commentary, Politics, social commentary Tagged with Authoritarianism, Bible, Christianity, COVID, creation, Genesis, Scripture, Vax, young earth creationsism